Mental Health Week 2020 - A conversation with Simon Black

- Hello, and welcome to Queensland's Mental Health Week Event, a conversation with ex-AFL superstar and Survivor alumni, Simon Black. I'm Chris Bombolas, I'm your host from Workplace Health and Safety Queensland, and I'm looking forward to catching up with Simon and talking all things leadership, resilience and mental health. There will be an opportunity to ask Simon questions at the end of his presentation, and thank you to the many who have already submitted questions via our registration form. Clearly we've got some Survivor fans in the mix, as well as some very, very eager AFL lovers. I would like to begin by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the land on which we meet today and pay my respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. I'd like to extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples watching today. Mental Health Week is celebrated annually in October and promotes the importance of mental health and wellbeing, and aims to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness. Don't forget, tomorrow is World Mental Health Day. Our theme this year for Mental Health Week is Take Time. So, thank you to you for taking the time today to tune in and lend us your support. Let's kick off, and that pun was indeed intended. My pleasure to introduce Simon Black, an Australian rules football legend and one of the game's most celebrated and decorated players. A hardworking midfielder and gifted with incredible football skills, he was a loyal team man and valued group achievements over the many individual accolades he received, and there were many of them, including a Brownlow Medal in 2002, the Norm Smith Medal in 2003, three best and fairest awards at the Lions, three Premiership flags in 2001, 2002 and 2003, All-Australian honors in 2001, '02 and '04, and voted into the Australian Football Hall of Fame. Simon was part of the fab four that included Michael Voss, Jason Akermanis and Nigel Lappin. So, whether at an elite or grassroots level, nurturing talent is Simon Black's passion, and in 2015, he launched the Simon Black Australian Rules Academy. Following time as midfield coach at the Brisbane Lions, Simon turned his focus to growing his Academy and his media commitments with the Triple M Footy team. In 2019, Simon featured as a contestant on Channel 10's "Survivor Australia", fighting it out for 42 days and making it to the final eight. Throughout his time on the show, he demonstrated his humility, leadership and sheer physical ability. I'm sure we have a number of Survivor fans joining us today, as well as AFL aficionados. Welcome, Simon.

- Thank you, Bomber. Thanks very much for having me, it's great to be here and to talk a little bit about mental health.

- Absolutely, let's talk about dealing with challenges, resilience, thriving during times of failure and success, and you had plenty of those during your career.

- Yeah, I certainly did, I mean it, thank you very much, I guess, for the rundown of my background. I was lucky to have some individual and team success, but there were certainly a lot of challenges along the way, Bomber, and I'm, yeah, looking forward to explain to the guests a little bit about my story and the path I had to achieve my dreams.

- Yep. Workload balance is a key one, let's start off with that. You've got training, you've got games, you've got recovery. There were a lot of things during your playing career that was structured and you had to focus on, so you had to commit to those, didn't you?

- Oh, I did, Bomber, I mean, the AFL environment is very structured, and almost quite robotic, they describe it these days, which is an interesting term, but away from that, I needed balance in my life, and through the experience, I found that if I didn't have my own life away from the football club, I'll become too just primary focused on football, and that became my identity. And if I had an injury and football was taken away from me, I really struggled mentally during that time.

- Well, what's your identity away from footy? We're talking about Simon Black, Survivor contestant, Simon Black, AFL superstar. Who is Simon Black away from those areas?

- Well, I guess I'm, as I like to think of it, a bit of a fun-loving guy who likes adventure and likes challenging himself. I love connecting with people, love my family and my friends. I love the outdoors, I love being active, surfing, getting in the ocean, so just that sort of adventurous lifestyle. And like I said, I just really love people and connecting with people and new experiences.

- And you are passionate about mental health, aren't you?

- Oh, look, I am, I mean, I think, like everyone, I want to live a fulfilled and happy life, and get the most out of life, and like I said, I want to try new experiences and challenge myself, and unless I'm mentally healthy, I'm not going to want to push myself and get myself outside the comfort zone. So, being mentally healthy is critically important to living a full, enriched life, and that's why I'm very passionate about that aspect of life and trying to help others along their journey too.

- How did you get into it, how did it become a passion or a focal point, and was there one specific moment, incident, something that said, I need help, or, you know, I need to look at how I'm living or what I'm doing?

- Yeah, look, I guess for me, Bomber, when I was 18, I got drafted from Perth to the Brisbane Lions, which was like a dream come true, it really was. In my second year. I really wanted to try, my goal was to cement a spot in the senior Lions team, in the midfield, and I was really struggling with that earlier in the year, in the season of '99, and I always put a lot of pressure on myself. I've always done that throughout and I've always had to live with a bit of a fear of failure. And so, for me, in that second year at the Lions, I actually had to go and seek some medical advice throughout it because I wanted to be Michael Voss basically, I wanted to go and be the star.

- Which kid didn't at that time?

- Yeah, that's right, that's right, and, I mean, I was never going to be Vossi, but I put so much pressure on myself to be an elite AFL footballer that I really got myself in a mental hole, and like I said, I had to seek some professional help in that time. What I didn't realize and what I was learning through going through that experience, Bomber, was that I was actually, I always set goals for myself, and I was actually improving and going towards my goals through the work I was committing to and all the training I was doing, but I didn't see the growth in myself, and I didn't see the growth in my game because I wanted to get to this end result, which was miles away. And like I said, I was probably never going to get there, but I just didn't see the improvement in myself, and that brought a lot of frustration in me, and I was very harsh on myself and got myself in a really bad way, like I said. So, I felt like I've lived, you know, the mental hardship to a point, you know, not probably to the extent that some people unfortunately go through, but I felt that definitely, through being hard on myself, you know, I think we all have this perfection myth, that I've got to be this and I've got to be that. Until you realize that you're not perfect, you can really get yourself back in a bad way, and that's where I was, and like I said, through experience, I learned to be kind to myself.

- You obviously sought professional help. How did that work, and how did it work for you?

- Well, for me, firstly, I had a great mentor. Well, I'll tell you, my doctor at the Brisbane Lions was fantastic, and like I said, always about setting goals, I was lucky, my dad, he was my Little Athletics coach when I was about 12 or 13, and he got me setting goals as a little tacker back then. And what I did, I'd break down what I want to achieve each day of the week. And, yeah, I might have a lofty goal at the end of the year or in two or three years' time, really, but I learned that the criticalness of having a couple of, I call them, the critical few things that were important to me achieving what success looked like that day or that week, or that month, or whatever it might be. So, for me, having little wins along the way was really, really valuable, and I got taught that from an early age, and reinforced it through our club doctor at the time, who was more than just a medical doctor, he was a great mentor. So, that was really helpful for me, having a critical couple of things every day that I needed to do, whether it was on field or whether it was off field, to help with my mental wellbeing. And I learned what those were throughout that phase in my life, from my second year at the Lions.

- Can I ask, were your teammates aware of these problems, and how did you, did you try to cover them up at the time? Was there a stigma at that time?

- Look, I think there was. In the late '90s, there was still a bit of, I guess, a bit of a rah-rah footy culture that was existent back then. So, for me, I mean, I was just a young guy at the club around a lot of guys I looked up to on television, and really didn't feel comfortable, except for probably a couple of the guys I got drafted with, that I lead on that I was struggling mentally. So, Bomber, again, what I learned throughout that time, if I carry that burden, that load, all to myself without expressing it verbally, I felt, you know, that's where I felt the weight and, you know, that's when I'd slip mentally back into it, really struggling, and so forth. So, expressing it verbally with a couple of people, one was a player and one was a staff member at the club, was really valuable for me to help work through that, and also realize that others are going through the same thing as well. So, that was a growth thing in me that I, I guess, brought up in the footy system, where, you know, being open and expressing that you're actually struggling was something that wasn't really done at that time a lot. So, to work through that and get to the point where I could be open and be vulnerable and say, hey, look, I'm struggling with this, it was really, really powerful to me and helped me just become comfortable, a more comfortable person mentally.

- What sort of things did you learn from that time, and can you give us some tips of what helped you? You know, could it have been to find a pursuit outside of footy to, you know, take up surfing, whatever it might've been, things that may have helped you get through that tough period?

- Well, for me, Bomber, it was around setting some small goals within that, and like I said, I've always been lucky, fortunate through my dad to help to write goals, and they were football-oriented goals, and then they were away from my professional football at the time, and we touched on the away from football. It was, I love the ocean. I mean, I love my surfing, and I love also being around people. So, I was one of those people that got a little bit withdrawn throughout that period of time, and I'd go home from the football club, and I'd go and I'd spend time at home in my room, and I wouldn't, you know, bring my friends and I'd become a bit withdrawn, which isn't healthy, which isn't good. So, I learned to get outside of myself, and I learned the importance of communicating with others. My family, they were back in Perth at this stage, and so I got on the phone regularly with them. I got out of the house and I exercised, not running around a football field, but I did different things, whether it was in the ocean surfing or going for a walk in the park, get some sunshine on my back. So that was sort of the away from the football club aspect, and then, around the football club, I just keep it really simple. My first thing was, I'm gonna go in here, it's a professional environment, but I'm going to enjoy my time here. They might want X, Y and Z from me, but I'm going to enjoy this experience.

- You weren't being a bit of a larrikin, were you?

- Well, I just had fun.

- Particularly around Michael Voss and Lee Matthews, that would've been tough.

- Well, yeah. It was more important to me than football, than playing-

- Yeah, so enjoy yourself.

- Just enjoy yourself, Bomber, yeah, enjoy, and don't be so serious about it. Find the things that you enjoy and really cling onto those things, and a lot of that was connecting with people within the footy club.

- Simon, you touched on a really important thing when it comes to mental health, and that's isolation, and it started early for you, and you probably didn't realize you had to deal with it as an 18-year-old. You were born in Mount Isa in Queensland, Western Queensland. Your family moved to Western Australia at a young age. I think you were about 18 years of age, drafted as the 31st pick for the Lions, and all of a sudden, you're away from family, your support network's not there, you're on your own, and you're with a bunch of blokes who you've got to get to know. How was that?

- It was a dream come true, and it was very difficult on the flip side as well. You know, I must admit, I was pretty well looked after at home by mum, mum and dad were great, and the brother, we're very close, so that was a challenge initially. Getting lost in a new city, meeting new people, being in a very professional AFL environment, the expectations demanded on you were very challenging. So, I was out of my comfort zone a lot, but I look back and it was such a growth year for me. It was such a growth year, and I almost, towards the end of the year, embraced the newness, the newness to it all, if that's a word, all the challenges that came with my first year in the system. So, I put up a bit of a brick wall initially of, well, this is a little bit sort of too much and overwhelming, but as time went by, I'd get a real kick out of pushing myself and working through a new experience, and feel the growth, I guess, from that new experience that I went through.

- Is there anything you'd do differently, that you, in hindsight, you look back and you go, yeah, maybe I could have done it like this?

- Well, I lived with a family when I moved across. Coming from a family in Perth, a lot of guys will live with teammates when they get drafted, and I lived with a family, which isn't to answer your question, it's quite on the flip side. I found it fantastic to have a family environment, where I got home-

- Oh, no, that's a connection. You found a connection point, something that worked for you. There's nothing wrong with that.

- Yeah, absolutely, that's exactly what it was, a connection with another family that really embraced me and took me in, and I felt really connected to Brisbane more quickly on the back of that, and it really helped me settle in.

- Look, Survivor is on the same aspect about isolation, success, failure, working with people, against people, for people, with people, a whole lot of aspects to it. Being away from family and friends again, but this is now a very mature and a learned Simon Black, how did you deal with that compared to the early days?

- Well, Bomber, firstly, Survivor was an incredible experience in so many ways. Coming from a football background, where it's team versus team, in the early days of Survivor, that's very much the case as well, for all the Survivor fans out there that very much know that, until you lose a challenge, where it's every man for himself. And you throw in the challenges of, you know, a lack of food and poor quality sleep and, you know, as I said, everyone trying to-

- Some of the doubters reckon that's a myth.

- I can tell you, no, I can tell you-

- No food, or little food?

- I guess it's a reality TV show and they want drama, so they don't want to get you, I know I've said-

- When you're cranky.

- Where you're cranky and you're really struggling, you know, and so, to throw in that that you're trying to, you know, stab me in the back, and vice versa, it becomes very much a mental game. So, it was a massive challenge, but I loved it, and I embraced it, and I was quite open, took the mentality going in of just let yourself go and just, whatever happens happens, but my strategy in the game was to build genuine relationships with people, do what I said I was going to do to a point to build trust with people, and just enjoy the experience.

- Did you stay loyal to yourself? Like you've got your own, you know, ah, how can I describe it? You've got your own principles, did you stick by them even under pressure in there? Because, you know, a lot of survivors have said, oh, I had to change, you know, I live to a reputation, you know, the way they portrayed you, was that honest? Were you being honest to yourself?

- Yeah, that was hard going in, Bomber, and I mean, I'd like to think it was portrayed, the way I tried to play with a degree of loyalty, a degree of integrity, do what I said I was going to do. But Survivor, you know, I tell you what, all that challenges you because, you know, you've got to be, a bit of skullduggery is what's involved in the game of Survivor, and there were times where I might've told the odd porky-pie to get through a scenario. But, yeah, you take the attitude that that's what you've got to do out there at times, but all in all, I must say, I did play the game how I wanted to with doing what I said I was going to do to a point, and building genuine relationships with people, and that was an amazing experience, mate.

- You said you were a hard marker on yourself. Were you happy with where you finished?

- No, not really.

- Oh, I knew that was coming.

- No, look, I wanted to get to the top three.

- Yeah.

- And, look, post-merge, you know, if you're any kind of physical threat, you know, the three threats in the game, the social, strategic and physical, they come after you pretty strong, and I got blindsided and sent to Exile beach and came back in, and I knew they were coming after me pretty hard, Bomber, so I was a bit disappointed. I tried my best, but they wanted me out, unfortunately.

- How did that play on your mental health? You didn't achieve the goal that you'd set yourself. Again, it's about wanting to put yourself where you think you should be, and again, you missed it. How do you deal with it?

- I got upset there, and I'll lie in bed at night and I've got a lot of woulda-shoulda-couldas running through my mind still, even today. It was one of the best experiences in my life, like the 2004 grand final, where we lost the grand final, and you have all these moments of, if I'd only done this, or we'd done that, or thought of this, or what have you. But you know what, I mean, I feel very fortunate for the experience, and I try to put my focus on the positives from that experience. It's very easy, your mind naturally wanders to the negative side, and I think that happens in a lot of walks of life. Again, we talk about this, you know, perfection myth, that things should be perfect and things should always work out, well, they don't, that's not reality, but along the way, you're going to have some fantastic experiences and opportunities within that. And so, that's where I've tried to base my mindset, and it brings me a smile to my face, you know, it really does, to be able to live out on a beach in Fiji, a beautiful beach with amazing ocean, eating just rice and beans every night, rations of that, sleeping under a shelter that you've built yourself, no mobile phone, no technology around you, which is an enormous positive, I must say. My wife said when I came back, she said, I've never seen you look so content and so healthy in the face. So, it was an amazing experience, and as I said, I try to keep my mind in that, you know, the great parts of it.

- What about being in the goldfish pond? As an 18-year-old, once you made your debut with the Lions, you had Premiership success, you had all that individual success, you know, a one-team town with great success for the Lions in those glory days of the early 2000s, and then, all of a sudden, you're in another goldfish pond, which is the big Survivor one. How do you deal with that? That's, again, under the microscope constantly and all the time.

- Yeah, Survivor, in that regard, with a camera always there, literally this far away, Bomber, was something that took a while to get used to, that's for sure. I remember three or four days in thinking, gee whiz, hell, help, there's a camera literally everywhere, but you learn just to, you know, become, I felt like Prince Harry after a while. It's always something around, but you just get used to it, and you've got to be true to yourself, you've got to be. You know, there's no point in putting up a facade. Eight people around you will see through it in time and you're not going to be happy yourself, so you've got to be who you are, and that was my whole mindset, with a camera always in your face, if you like.

- All right, then let's look at the opposite things, where, you know, everyone talks about the importance of being active and doing other pursuits. What do you do when you're on Survivor to come down from all those great challenges and heights, and how has that worked for you these days?

- Yeah, well, just on that quickly, I mean, that's why Survivor, again, was such a privilege, because those challenges they do, Bomber, was such a privilege to be able to participate in, they were amazing, and when you do one, I'd have this great gratitude of, wow, that was amazing, that was amazing, we might've lost it, and you go back to camp, and it's every man for himself trying to survive before the Tribal Council that night. But, yeah, look, I would take the time, I would take the time whilst I was out there on the beach, Bomber, to have my own time and just sort of reflect on where I was at, how I was feeling, how my body is feeling, how my mind was feeling, 'cause anxiety is a big thing that can kick in on the Island, because you think, you know, three people go for a walk that are in your alliance, and you think, oh, they might be talking about me. So, anxiety is a really big one, and just having your own time to reflect on where you're at, what I've done and said, and all the experiences that you're going through, it's vitally important to help calm your mind, yeah.

- Let's move on to leadership. How important is that to have positive, you know, even tough leadership that comes with credibility, how important is that?

- Ah, I mean, it's absolutely incredible. If you're talking about being part of a team, your leadership is first and foremost, it really is. I mean, I kinda speak highly of those particular gentlemen you mentioned, Michael and Lee. Firstly, leadership, what is it? I guess it's your actions, it's your behaviors and what you can physically see, and I guess, from an on-field perspective, Michael Voss was the ultimate pinnacle in that regard, where he dragged us along with him by the way he attacked the ball or attacked the opposition, and so forth. So, the actual physical action is critical. I feel, if you talk about Lee, Lee brought great clarity and simplicity to his messaging, and I think that's what the great leaders do. He brought a sense of hope to us and belief through the way he sold a message to us and really built us up. And I think, based around, you know, mental health, Bomber, and leadership, I think, you know, leaders and managers play a real role in driving, you know, a positive environment within a workplace. And for us, they've got to harness, they've got to be advocates for driving that environment, and creating an environment that is positive and somewhere that you want to be, and it's not just through talking about it, it's by actually visibly seeing that from your leaders.

- And there's a whole heap of characters, isn't there, all different characters. Some, you know, like the soft touch, other people within the group don't really liked the out-and-out abrasive person. So, there's a mix of leadership styles that are around as well.

- There really is, and they talk these days around having more emotional intelligence rather than football IQ to be a really good coach, and I 100% agree with that and see that all the time. Being able to build a relationship and have genuine care for someone, that's how, then, you can go back and when you need to, because they're not performing well, have that stern chat with them. But I once heard a saying, which resonated with me, and I think the younger generation, this applies to them even more so now, that people don't care what you know until they know that you care. So, you could be the most greatest football brain going around, but unless you've built that relationship with someone, you're not going to have that tight connection with them. So, for me, you know, having empathy, having an understanding of where someone is at away from their workplace is vitally important, and like I said earlier, demonstrating that you have genuine care for someone's mental wellbeing, and as a leader, you put things in place in the day-to-day operations of that workplace, that's what a leader is about, and that's what their responsibility is to me.

- We've spoken about the leaders that influenced you, and from my memory, and it's a bit cloudy these days, Simon, in the AFL Recorder, I don't think the C was next to your name very often at the Lions, but you were a leader amongst that group of 22 on the field at, you know, any given time, and then, you know, a playing group of 30, 35 at the club, and then the younger kids coming through. Can you reflect on your experiences? How do you describe your leadership, and what are the qualities that you are proud of most in your leadership?

- Yeah, well, I guess I was a bit of a quieter spoken sort of a leader, I like to think I was a leader through my actions, and then also, like I just touched on earlier around building relationships with my teammates. I felt my strength was identifying if someone was really struggling and had become a little bit withdrawn, whether it's on-field performance or something going on away from their life. So, again, getting to know them outside of just their hours of being at work, that's how you can do that genuine connection and that deeper level of a relationship with somebody, and I guess that's what I really enjoyed. We'd get new draftees come into the football club. I might've been around for a few years, so helping them settle into the new city or into the AFL environment, I really enjoyed that. And like I said, I felt, when things got hard, whether it was through, you know, we're not winning games or somebody is really struggling, I could sense that 'cause of that connection, the relationship I'd formed with them previously.

- You never once thought about maybe, you know, joining Acker and he's handstands at the end of the game perhaps to show some leadership?

- I'd love to, but I don't even know how to do a handstand, I'd fall flat on my face, mate.

- Look, talking about leadership and direction, did anyone over your years of playing footy or on Survivor offer you some tips on leadership or leadership style, or how you should embrace it, or how you should approach it?

- One thing I do really remember is from our psychologist at the Brisbane Lions during that era. His name was Phil Jauncey. He's quite-

- He's been around sport, yeah, a long time.

- Yeah, he has, yeah, and Phil described this thing, and it was almost like a bit of a human condition. It was around, okay, so we don't all jump out of bed every day feeling great, do we? We don't feel energized every day that we wanna, oh, I wanna go to work, you know, I can't wait to get there, or I can't wait to go to the football club and get it. We feel lethargic, and we feel really tired mentally and physically. And one thing he described to us, he said, on those particular occasions, if you can come to your workplace, come to the football club, and reach out to someone around you, perhaps multiple people, and have a conversation and ask them questions about how are they going, are you okay, Bomber, are you feeling okay, how's your life away from this football club environment, and he said, if you do that and you're genuine about it, energy flows where energy goes, and it's almost like the energy that you're feeling you don't have at the moment, like it'll come back to you. When he said that to us, it really resonated with me, and that was about 10 years before he retired, he said that to me, and every time I felt that way coming to the football club, I would go out of my way and do that. It was amazing how many times I would feel energy come back towards me by just doing that, by having that care for someone else, and as I said, it's almost like this energy flows because I created a bit of energy between us.

- Yeah. That's interesting because in an earlier presentation for the Electrical Safety Office, Dave Burt from New Zealand asked us all to come up with a phrase, which he uses, and to use it, which is, "What's happening in your world?" Right, five words, very simple, but it gives someone an opportunity to let you know what's happening in their world. And when we've got a physical injury, like a busted arm or a busted nose, or, you know, the knee's gone during the game, we can see that, but sometimes we don't see what's going on internally. So, what's happening in your world?

- Absolutely, yeah, and it's just as simple as you said, five words, isn't it, you know, it's not much, and that may well be enough for someone to get something really important that they're struggling with off their chest, and might instigate more discussion for them. It might not, you might take another one or two questions or whatever, but at least you've reached out to them, and I can guarantee that person will appreciate it in time.

- Speaking about leadership, a positive leader, what kind of influence can they have on a workplace or a team when we're all working together really for a common goal?

- Oh, it's enormous. It's absolutely enormous, I mean, I was lucky to see it numerous times. You get the buy-in, and when you've got buy-in, everyone, I guess, striving a common goal and everyone's passionate about it, it's a really powerful and wonderful place to be. And then that's, I guess, one of the reasons I love football and being a part of a team, and it's not just, you know, my days playing football, but now with my Academy program, we're all striving to do the same thing. I think the great leaders have the ability to be able to connect people and be a great example, I guess, like I said earlier, around what do we want to be about, and we want to create this and get buy-in, but a collaborative approach from others, this is what we want to be about, and their leader then driving that, and looking out for each other.

- So, in footy and work, it's not just about reward and recognition, you know, if I put in the effort, I'm gonna win trophies, I'm gonna win this, I'm gonna make lots of money and all of that, is it? It's more than that.

- Ah, hundred percent. My greatest experiences from my time playing AFL football, it's the relationships I've formed, and I've been really lucky to play on a really great side and win three Premierships, and that was incredible, but it's the human element that's more better than that. You know, it's the relationships, lifelong friends that I feel that I've had through my time just playing football, and the experiences together, to work so hard, to fight for a common goal, that's what bonded us together, and that's the best thing about it.

- You speak about the experiences, sharing it with teammates, with workmates, whoever it might be you, but there's success, and then there's failure. How did you ride the highs and lows? Three Premierships in a row, that day in September, there was this, you know, great comradery amongst the Lions, and then you get to the fourth one and you think you're going to get four in a row, and you lose. So, there's this high, really high highs for a number of years, and then bang, you hit the wall.

- Yeah, it's really difficult, but I mean, I'll be honest, I think about that a lot these days still, I really do. You know, it was potentially, you know, they were talking about us being the greatest side of all time if we won the fourth Premiership and that sort of thing. So, that hurts a lot, I know I've been a competitive person. But, again, I've got to always go back to, I'm very proud of the effort I put in personally and my teammates around me put in, and I've put my mind in a place of, what a great experience it was, what a great effort it was to get to a fourth Premiership.

- Well, realistically, you didn't fail, did you?

- Fourth Grand Final, not fourth Premiership, sorry, yeah.

- You didn't fail.

- I don't think we did, Bomber, no, no, I agree with you, yeah. I think we didn't fail, we put it all out there. Truth be told, we had a lot of injuries go into the game. We gave it a red hot crack, and I think when you give something your best, best of all that you've got, you've got to have a real sense of pride whether you succeed or whether you fail, and that's why, I guess, touching on earlier, like I was saying, as a young player, as a young person, I wanted to put on five or six kilos of muscle mass to be an AFL inside midfielder, and I was a long way away from it, it was gonna take me a lot of time, and it's always been hard to put size on. But I was, you know, I'd put a couple of kilos on over about a six-month period, it took that long, and I'd given myself a bit of a pat on the back after a while because I was having these small little wins along the way. I was getting stronger in the gym. I wasn't getting pushed over on the football field as much as I once was. And until I realized and identified I was actually improving, I was in this negative mindset, but then I flipped it, and like you said, with the AFL Grand Final, even though we lost, there were many great experiences in the journey.

- Absolutely, and look, let's talk about, then, to continue to motivate yourself to strive for success, when you've reached the pinnacle three years in a row, how do you climb back for the fourth one? How do you, like, you know, say, for instance, businesses are going really well and, you know, we've had three or four great years, how do we make year number five great? How do we keep that team environment pumped and enthusiastic?

- Well, I'll put it this way, look, I think, even if you win, get the pinnacle of Premiership, and you don't enjoy the journey, then it's not nearly as enjoyable, is it? So, I think the journey on the way needs to be fun and exciting. It can't be all the time, a lot of hard work's involved, Bomber, as we know, but you've got to really, and I know it's a cliche saying, but you've got to enjoy the journey, and that's, I think, where leaders and managers need to be able to create an environment day to day, week to week, where there is some fun, for people to enjoy the experience of coming to work, coming to, again, I'll obviously use the football club analogy. That's a big part of it 'cause if you don't enjoy that, the end result, whether they get there or not, is nowhere near as satisfying. So, that's a really big responsibility I feel that we as leaders need to have, and enjoy every day, find something that you enjoy every day.

- You've touched on enjoying the journey and parts of the journey. I know one that you're particularly proud of is your Academy and working with young kids. What does that mean to you?

- Yeah, thanks, Bomber, I really am. I mean, for me, it's not so much about elite AFL talent, we've got some in that space, but it's more around just helping nurture young people who, they're fresh out of school, some are not sure exactly what they want to do with their lives, some have never had a lot of direction in their lives. So, we have an academic education program, and we have an Australian Rules Football Program around it, but my favorite part is helping a young male or female with, you know, over the time they're with us around giving them some direction, some belief, some confidence in themselves, whether it's through, you know, leadership programs, whether it's through goal setting, whether it's nutrition workshops we do with them. We try to really tailor a whole array of different things to their experience, their time with us. That's what I enjoy the most, the growth where they can walk away and say, look, I'm really passionate about this, and if I can help them, you know, on their journey towards it. It might be working within the AFL or it might be working within a school to become a teacher, it might be, whatever it might be, a vastly different array of things. So, that's what I enjoy the most.

- Why are these life skills, not necessarily, you know, work-related skills, important, and in your career, how have you prioritized these?

- Yeah, exactly, I think you said it, these are life skills, and that's what I enjoy most with my Academy program, trying to teach our students in life skills that are transferable to any field that you go into. And that's why, you know, the life skills are so important, whether it is being able to, you know, set goals for yourself, work through challenging situations, have a bit of resilience, whether it's physical resilience or mental resilience. They are the aspects of life that, as a young 17 or 18-year-old, you need to learn, particularly coming out of a school, out of the school system. There's a big, wide, bad world at times out there, you need to have a bit of, well, firstly, a bit of kindness to yourself, I feel, and a bit of compassion to yourself, but you've got to have a bit of direction, and that's what I really enjoy trying to help them with.

- And look, I know you're modest and you'll probably shy away from this question, but a little birdie told us you've had involvement with youth suicide prevention cause Here For Life early on. Suicide prevention, how important is it, particularly in young kids today? And we've seen a lot of kids put a lot of pressure on themselves for sport, being their way out of the doldrums and to success, and they may not make it, and they put a lot of pressure on themselves and it ends in tragedy. How important is suicide prevention to Simon Black?

- Oh, it's enormous, Bomber, it's enormous. Firstly, there's lots of organizations out there. R U OK Week recently was on. Check out their website if you feel like you really are struggling. There's obviously Lifeline and Beyond Blue as well, so there's plenty of opportunity to seek help with those organizations. For me, I got involved because I feel I was very fortunate with my upbringing firstly, had a wonderful family, and I had a dream and a passion to play AFL football, and I was very lucky to do that, but I had a lot of help along the way, and a lot of people don't. And you can put a lot of expectation on yourself and mental weight that you carry around, and so, it's really difficult if you don't succeed, very difficult. And so, being able to have some coping mechanisms, being able to have a network of people around to support you is really important. And some personalities, I guess, with people is to become introvert and withdrawn, and I've seen it, it's the worst thing that you can possibly do. So, being able to stay verbal and talk to people, some people would probably rather not talk to family or a friend, it might be just a person that they know over a phone call perhaps, but having someone to help you work through those tough challenges and moments in your life, it is critical and it's not a weakness. You know, being vulnerable is a real strength, and I think, in 2020, we're starting to realize that and identify with that more, and that's where, people, whether you are young or old, speak to someone. There's plenty of people out there that've gone through it, and there's plenty of people that are willing to help you work through that situation.

- Before we go to the questions, and there's plenty of them, obviously you've got a lot of fans out there, what would your advice be for people to try and stay mentally healthy?

- Well, physical activity for me is a massive one. When I'm moving is when I feel my best, so every day I try to get active of some sort, Bomber. That is enormous, and I touched on it earlier, goal setting has been very valuable for me. And I guess for some people it might sound odd, you know, it's what is that and how do I do that and things, but it can be very basic, very simple. What would I like to achieve by the end of this week, or break it down, end of this day? I might be a student, and I might be working in a demanding job, I might be a family member with children and I've got to cook and clean, I've got a lot going on, I want to look after my physical health, but I don't have the time or the energy at the end of the day. If you can set yourself a couple of little goals of 20 minutes a day to exercise, find it within your lunch break, and you start that habit, because it's all about habits, if you can start that, you know, set it for a week, I guarantee at the end of that week, it'll be easier for the second week you do it, and it'll be easier to start that pattern, if you like. So, physical activity, I guess, for me has been very important, and on the flip side of that, also mentally having something, some purpose, to look forward to, whether it's my job or whether it's a family activity together, a holiday or whatever it might be, having something mentally to look forward to is really important too.

- And look, at times, we get into ruts, you know, where things become worse than they really are. They appear to be so bad that we just can't deal with it. What do you say to those people who've reached that point? How can they reenergize themselves?

- Yeah, it's obviously a challenging time when you're going through that, when you're in that state. Again, I'll touch back on getting some professional help, seeking some help. There's many people out there that are willing to help you, and that's, again, whether it's a family member, a friend, or whether it's not a family member or a friend, there's professional organizations, again, like the R U OK movement, there's the Beyond Blue and Lifeline. But if you are happy to talk to someone that you know are part of your friendship group or what-have-you network, then I really encourage you to do it. I really do because, you know, another saying I once heard is a problem shared is a problem halved, and by expressing that verbally, I know I felt it, you feel better for doing so. So, really talk, that's a really big one, just really talk, and try and get outside and exercise, and just move, and all those little things will make a big difference, I feel.

- All right, now time for your questions, and thank you for all of them, there's been plenty, and we'll try to get to as many as we can. And first up, Kate, thank you. "How hard, Simon, was it being removed from your kids and your wife, missing out on key milestones?" And this happened during Survivor for eight weeks, and during your footy career as well?

- Yeah, look, Survivor, I guess, firstly, Bomber, I mean, that was eight weeks I was away. We've got three children under the age of seven at home, so my wife is a saint. She really is, she's a saint. Look, it's quite a selfish pursuit, going away and doing Survivor obviously, so I've got nothing but admiration for my wife, Catherine. She was very supportive. In fact, a year before, we were watching it on TV, and she said to me, she said, "If you ever got asked to do it, would you do it," and I said, "I'd love to." And so, when I did, I thought for a second, wait, okay, but she was so supportive, she was really encouraging me to do it, yeah, she was amazing. Look, at home, to give you an idea, she had a very structured and routine lifestyle for that time. Not knowing how long I'd be away for was obviously tough as well, and I felt a fair bit of guilt when I was out there on the Island, you know, just knowing how difficult it would be to manage the house and the extracurricular activities and their schoolwork, and all those things that go into daily life. So, yeah, it was certainly very difficult for my wife, Catherine, and she's a saint to let me do it, and I'll be forever grateful.

- Yeah, and it was a different kind of juggling during the footy season, wasn't it, during the footy career, you know, short periods away, but still away.

- It's still away, exactly. Now that probably helped my wife a lot get into some sort of routine and things. Yeah, she's been, I guess, quite well versed in me being away with my football commitments over the years.

- All right, another question, Lisa. She's a big fan of yours, I must admit. "In Survivor," she says, "you ended up on Exile beach at one point," a remote location without any of the basic comforts that we're all really used to, shelter, fire, all that niceties, maybe a chocolate at the end of a very hard day. "What was it like for you, and how did you cope?

- Look, it was very difficult, but I must admit, I turned up second and Daisy was there, and poor Daisy was there two days earlier, and the biggest storm in Survivor history had come through. And poor Daisy had no fire, which means no food 'cause you can't boil your rice and your beans. So, she was a real trooper, and truth be told, when I turned up, she'd just made her shelter 'cause everything had got decimated by this big storm, a genuine big storm that came through. She'd just made the fire, and so, I just gave her a big hug and just said, "You're amazing." I thought she was going to put the white flag up and say, you know, I'm done, I've had enough, but I guess, from my personal experience, you can get a bit anxious with that because you've been, I got blindsided at Tribal Council, and my saving grace was Exile beach. What I learned was just control what I can control right now, what's important right now. Don't worry about the challenge I've got to do tomorrow against Daisy to get back into the game, control what I can control, and that was to get a good night's sleep, try to, you know, help Daisy, I mean, she was my ally at that stage, it was just the two of us there, you know, eat some food, help with the shelter a little bit, get it more structurally sound, and those sorts of things. But that was my sort of train of thinking over the time, was just control what I can control at this moment, right now.

- You spoke about being a people person earlier, and all of a sudden, you're on a beach with a stranger, you know, she's done it tough. You've given her a big hug and sort of tried to comfort her. How do you reckon that was for her, and how was it for you? You know, like this is, you're in isolation, you're contestants on a show, how was it?

- It was pretty awkward the next morning when we woke up. We slept literally shoulder to shoulder on the ground, and I got stuck into her a little bit actually, tongue in cheek, Bomber, because she built this shelter and there was like this tree root growing up in this little area. She goes, "You sleep there, I'll sleep here." I had this tree root in my back all night, but I must say, I think she was trying to get a bit of an advantage, one up on me. But, no, look, we were great buddies, and I guess, when we had to compete in the one-on-one challenge to get back into the game, my competitive instincts kicked in and it was sorta every man for himself again, but I gave Daisy a big cuddle at the end of it, and she was a trooper. She was amazing.

- It's all very tribal on Survivor, I must say, and you no sooner got back to the tribe, then you got voted out again. How did you feel about that? So, you know, it's another slap in the face, and looking back, would you have done anything different?

- Yeah, look, when I got back, I just sensed that they wanted me gone straight away. I knew I was gonna be up against it. So, self-preservation kicks in, and I got played beautifully by Luke in the game. Just quickly, I had a clue on an idol, which he had replanted in the bush, it was an old clue, so there was never gonna be an idol in the bush, but it basically said, if you dig a hole around camp at the base of a stump, you might find it. Anyway, I dug for 24 hours, like, I was just relentlessly digging.

- How were the fingers?

- Yeah, I was broken, man. So, it was a real challenge coming back into the camp, and I was really angry, really angry. And you asked, what would I do differently, I would try to connect more with people and try to persuade them by building that relationship a little bit more, I guess, if I'd had my time again, because I sort of put a wall up and thought, I'm just gonna find this idol, but that wasn't the answer. It was more about trying to, you know, talk to people and connect that way.

- Look, you were definitely quite an achiever on your season of Survivor, lasting 42 days. That's pretty good. A question from Andrew, "In the game, you did last for that amount of time, but you didn't seem to get a lot of screen time," right? So, was that an editing thing or was that a, you know, Simon Black strategy?

- Wow! I must say, firstly, that I've copped it from my friends about this, about my lack of airtime and lack of words I said on the show. Ah, look, I was a little bit disappointed because I felt I played the game strategically, but you wouldn't have known that by watching this series. So, I was always a little bit, I was a little bit flat on that and disappointed, but it is what it is, nothing I could do about it.

- How did it impact on you? What did it do to you? Were there sleepless nights again? This seems to be a common thread through your career and into Survivor, sleepless nights.

- Well, I guess, watching it, as the episodes went on and you didn't see much from me, and you felt like I'd done something or, you know, said something strategic to win the game that would've been aired, I was a little embarrassed, to be honest. I was a little bit embarrassed and I was sitting there with my wife, Catherine, and she's like, are you even chatting or talking anytime soon?

- A non-speaking role on Survivor.

- Yeah, so I was a little bit disappointed. My strategy was to fly under the radar a little bit, Bomber, but certainly not as much as I did, mate. So, yeah.

- Was there anything that happened that wasn't shown that you wished it was, that could explain how you, you know, survived on Survivor?

- Well, there's a few times where, so if a move is made in Survivor to get someone out of the game, yeah, you feel you have a part played in that, and there were certainly times when I felt that way and just didn't get ahead, so that was a little bit disappointing. Certainly one late in the game was when I tried to blindside Abbey, and I go to a couple of the guys left in the camp, it was Luke, Harry and Baden involved, and I tried to plot this plan to blindside Abbey, and it didn't get shown. For whatever reason, it didn't get shown. That's the same night that I got blindsided by the guys and Abbey was on the other alliance that blindsided me, and even when I picked up my torch at Tribal Council, getting blindsided, Abbey turns to me and says, "Simon, I got you before you got me," and I thought that would've made really good telly, but anyway, it wasn't shown.

- Look, footy is a mix of, you know, physical and mental application and performance. Survivor is more a mental game, absolutely, as well as physical, so they've both got similarities. How did you navigate the psychological twists and turns, and can you explain that a bit?

- Yeah, look, it's really challenging, we're under fatigue, the lack of food and sleeping, and I guess they want to break you down mentally, and then that's what happens with poor quality sleep, rations of rice and beans. I remember day five, having a moment of being really overwhelmed, but extremely anxious and just thinking, my goodness, how am I going to get to day 20 like this, let alone day 40 or 50. And I really had to take a little moment to walk down the beach by myself and just sit there. I remember looking out at the ocean thinking, goodness me, I'm really struggling here. I felt like I dropped four or five kilos in that first five or six days. We hadn't cooked any beans. We couldn't cook our beans probably anyway. But I took a moment just to really gather myself and just get through an hour at a time. That was my thing, get through an hour at a time, and get to a sunset, and get to bed. And little things that can weigh on your mind significantly are if people walk off down the beach together, and you think they're gonna plot and scheme against you. That can create real anxiety within you, and I was really strong on myself not to let that beat me up.

- How did you do that, 'cause that's something that happens to us in, you know, work situations, family situations, where we think things are not going our way, and it starts to play on your mind.

- Yeah, it's a great point. My strategy was to build genuine relationships and have a bit of a plan to back myself. If I did X, Y and Z, get to know you, Bomber, get to know your background, and actually do what I said I was gonna do to a point to build trust, that's all I could do. I mean, the nature of the game is, there's parts of it that are out of your control, and again, going back to, what can I control right now, and if I had a bit of a strategy and a plan about what I could do to try to stay in alliance with people that weren't gonna vote me out, then that that's all I could do. I couldn't control the ultimate decision.

- My strategy would have been simple against you, I would've eaten all your rice and beans, and you would've been so fatigued, you would've had to have a medical exit early. So, what a great strategy.

- That's one way. That's what Luke and Harry kinda did to me beautifully. They got me a ripper, mate.

- This is from Marie. She said, "You lost a lot of weight," and you just touched on that, "during your time on the show," and we've probably got a heap of survivor fans here. "How did that impact on you mentally," 'cause now you're not only physically fatigued, you're mentally fatigued, you're starving. There's a combination of things which then tend to really exaggerate how your state of being is, don't they?

- It does, yeah, it exacerbates how you're feeling. And I guess the producers, the production, wants you to be irritable, you know, and lash out, that makes good television, and that was certainly a challenge, that was really difficult, and I think we all did. I remember one instance, where I sort of had a bit of a go at the production staff for a safety issue within a challenge that I probably regret a little bit, to be honest, but that was again about being present, being in the moment for me. All right, just get through this. I might be standing on a pole with, you know, something sharp, and the challenge might be, I remember, you could win a car, which was pretty cool, but you had to stand on these poles with these sharp rock-climbing handles on them on your feet, and it was excruciating pain. And it was a round I tried to just meditate and just be really present, be mindful about where I am right now, and take the pain away from what's the pain in my feet. And I'd think about my family back home and things, and I found that really, really powerful, just being present, and just being really mindful of where I am actually right now. It's just this moment. We'll get through this, and we'll move onto the next one once I'm past this particular moment.

- Physically, obviously, rest, recuperation, food, once you're out of Survivor, but when it comes to mental health, how did you bounce back, and how long did it take you, and was there a lasting effect perhaps?

- Look, a more overarching feeling was gratitude about being given the opportunity to do Survivor, but being a competitive person, I do have a little bit of regret, Bomber, that I should've done this and should've done that. But at the same time, I mean, it was beyond my control, a lot of it. I didn't do as well on a couple of challenges as I would've liked, and that was the end of me, really, but I just look at the great experience that I had. I gave it all I could, I did a lot of things that stretched me and pushed me, and I'm really proud of the fact that I opened myself up to doing that and gave it a red hot crack. And I think if you do that in whatever you're doing in life, you've got to be proud of that and give yourself a pat on the back, and have a sense of being content.

- Yeah. Here's a question from Chris, "Simon, over the years, you've had a mentoring role in the AFL," and you've got your Academy as well. "How much of that is about mental health," or health and wellbeing and mental health, "and how do you manage the mental health of players?" You know, it's a big thing in the game at the moment, we've seen a number of high profile sports people take time out of their game, which has been really good for them financially and reputationally, but they just get to a point where they need to check out for a while.

- Yeah, absolutely, well, if you're not mentally healthy, you're not gonna be able to form anywhere near your best, and you won't enjoy it. You won't enjoy it, and you'll become, you know, you won't want to do it anymore, simple as that. So, the mental health, and that's what I've enjoyed working with young people, it's paramount, it's first and foremost, to the physical aspect of physical sport even.

- Yep.

- So, I can't understate just how important it is, and a big part of that, when I work with the young people, is around just getting to know them and their background and their family, their friends, and what makes them, I guess, what makes them tick. What hobbies do they have outside of whether it's my Academy program with us, the hours we have them throughout the week, and having balance in life. You know, being able to make sure that they're doing things besides just playing football and studying, they have some real hobbies that they find passion from, and that's really critical to their wellbeing.

- Look, along those lines, George has put in a question as well. He says, look, "Do you think younger people," I won't go players 'cause this is not just sports-centric, that "younger people are more susceptible to a decline in mental health," you know, in competitive environments today, and in today's society, with the presence of social media and the emphasis we put on social media today, and the fact that we are all open and exposed to it?

- Oh, wow, I mean, it's massive, isn't it, Bomber? It's enormous, and it's something I never really went through in my playing days. I'm only just learning in recent years the gravity of social media and the negative impact it can have. It's enormous, I see it every day with our students. So, I mean, for me, what it does, and this is where meditation is a great thing, if you're not finding time throughout the day where your mind is just daydreaming, if you like, it's relaxed and you can reflect, social media, I mean, it has its purpose, but it just drags your mind to a certain place all the time. You're thinking about something or you're comparing yourself to others and, you know, it's a slideshow of great things, obviously you have social media, the highlights of their life, but it's keeping up with the Joneses, isn't it, really?

- Yeah, it is competition on a constant basis, we are doing this all the time, looking, looking, look.

- Yeah, yeah, and then you're comparing yourself all the time. I've learned myself, personally, to get on there for a few minutes, whether it's whatever platform it is, and then jump off, and then just really forget about it and place it away, and I really encourage my Academy students to do that as well. On the flip side of that, we've encouraged some meditation every day with them, just to be mindful and present with where they're at.

- Vossi gave me a little tip that, and you spoke about comparing, you know, on social media, he said that the Blacks compared themselves to the Kardashians, is that true?

- Who, my family?

- Yeah, the Blacks, yeah.

- Not in a million years, Bomber.

- All right, let's bring it back to a bit of normality, and Nicole says, look, Simon, you've achieved so much in your career, you know, both on and off the field, and as well, on the small screen, can I say, on Survivor. If you could only pick one thing out of everything that Simon Black has achieved in his 40 plus years on the planet, what would your proudest achievement be, and why?

- Okay. I think it would have to be a Premiership that I've won with the Brisbane Lions, and the reason being is it's the relationships. It's so difficult to be able to achieve the pinnacle in that sport, and it's the years of forming connections both on and off the field, Bomber, that makes it really special. You don't just win a Grand Final in one year. It's the nuances of getting to know each other in a sporting sense, but it's the trust and the relationship that you form over the years off the field, and that's the journey that you take together to get to that, you know, end result, and that's why it makes it so special when you're lucky to get there. It's so hard to get there, and you won't get there if you don't have genuine care for each other to go above and beyond to look out for each other, both on the field and off the field. That's why, to me, you know, the ultimate success in sport, and for me, AFL Football, was so incredibly special, Bomber, it's the lifelong bonds, the brotherhood that I've formed with those guys that I'll take to my grave with me.

- That's where we'll have to leave it today. A big thank you to Simon for sharing all of his experiences with us, and thank you for joining us as well. We have a great range of free virtual events available until the end of October, including sessions on managing remote and isolated work, stress, resilient leadership, wellbeing anchors at work, and even a chat with ex-Olympian Hayley Lewis. It's not too late to register for those events. A full catalog of industry and topic-specific video case studies, podcasts, speaker recordings, webinars and films to help you take action to improve your WHS and return outcomes is available. These resources are available for free to access at any time at WorkSafe.qld.gov.au. Download the mentally healthy workplaces toolkit, on screen now. It's a valuable resource to help employers, managers and leaders create and maintain mentally healthy workplaces. Once again, thank you for supporting Queensland's Mental Health Week, and remember, work safe, home safe.